When we first learn about Qigong, we tend to focus on the technique and the form. Today, we take it to the next level and dive into the formless and inner connection, the space within the space which is infinite. Debra Weisenburger Lipetz takes us on a fascinating journey into the core of who we are. My name is Torsten Lueddecke, and this is the Wisdom Qigong podcast. So welcome, Debra.
Debra, we just chatted briefly and you said you would like to talk about inner connection and formlessness. Now, when I heard the formlessness, I automatically thought, wow, this is interesting. Now, what does she actually mean by that? What does formlessness mean to you, and why is that so important? It’s one of those ideas or concepts which a lot of us feel is unreachable or we don’t know how
to talk about it. So I think it’s important to bring it up because it will. Eventually we will be in a different state, a different dimension through our practice at some point in time. And if you have an idea of that space, then you have no fear. Over the years, I have been practicing forever, it seems, and I have been from the beginning primarily attached to technique and
form, which is a good thing. That’s not a bad thing at all. At some point in time, everything shifts and there is a shift of awareness. And that awareness shift is what takes us to a different level. And that awareness shift occurs because we have an interconnection. And that interconnection is something that is gradually through our practice and repetition and working happens naturally. And I have discovered that
for some people, when that occurs, they don’t understand what’s happening, and so they become fearful, which is completely unnecessary because it’s a natural progression of where we are in our practice. So when we have a repetitive practice, many things can happen. With complete form, we can become attached to the outside, the technique, the physiological aspects of what’s happening to our body. We can completely cut off and ignore
anything that is happening internally, not from a physiological standpoint, but from a. I’m not quite sure of the word, but from an interconnective standpoint. When we pop into that other space, it is effortless. And then our movement becomes seamless and easy because we are unsticking from form and we are focused internally. This interconnection is called many, many names by different people. I’ll just call it interconnection, for lack
of a better word. But that interconnection is actually the glue that holds everything together in our practice. So having an awareness of that inner space is very, very important. Now let’s look into this a little bit further because you say you’re using the word inner connection, and other people use other words. Maybe you can just use some of those words because for me, at the moment, it doesn’t
bring a balance. I don’t know what you mean by that. How would that show? What is it exactly? Interconnection with what? It’s an interconnection with all things. Our practice is not a religion, but it is definitely a link, a spiritual link to finding ourselves. This interconnection is really about opening up your heart so that you can meet, for the first time, your true self Right. And that’s what
I mean by interconnection. It’s an inner essence, but it’s more than self. As far as self-righteousness, it’s not that kind of self. It’s a self that is all-knowing. And that self is within us always. Through our practice, we have access to that higher information, that higher essence, our true self. Over all the years that I’ve been practicing, and I can only share from my own experience, for a
very, very long time, I thought I was merging with my true self because I would have a wonderful experience and didn’t know quite how to describe it. I have since realized that we can merge with our true self and have no awareness that that’s what’s happening. By understanding that there is this space within us that is infinite, the entire universe is there. We don’t have to try to
go inside or do anything. It already exists within us. And all we have to do is become aware of it. And through our practice, we become aware of this space. Exploring this space, we have the potential and opportunity to meet our true self. The first time this occurred with me, I felt like I was shaking hands with myself for the first time. I was shocked after so many
years of practice. I finally had a glimpse of what it’s like to really have this connection. Now the challenge we have as students of this practice is staying with that connection and staying in that space. So there are three basic conditions of our practice. And the first one is trust. So when you think of trust, what is it you’re trusting? Ultimately, what we are learning is to trust
ourselves, our true self. And the second basic requirement or condition of our practice is to have this curried wish. And that is like a nudge from the inside, not from the outside, but from the inside. It does not come from logic or ego. It’s something inside of you that you have to practice. You have to do this. You have no choice. As a result, we begin to create
trust and confidence. But it can only be followed by the third condition, which is action. So if we just hang out in that space and say, “Oh, this is so lovely, I never want to do anything,” well, you’re completely separating yourself from everything. Nothing happens, as we are in a physical body. By understanding and shifting our awareness to our inner self, true self, or essence, which is merged
with everything, when we can shift that awareness, then all of our physical activities, our entire daily life, becomes our practice. Then we are no longer doing a practice in our daily life and then returning to our common daily life, but we are actually our practice. The mind never leaves, and our entire daily life is our practice. So we’re shrinking that separation between body and mind. My name is
Leila Cupido, and I’m the project manager of the Students Hub. Our team is constantly adding events, teachers, videos, and other resources to take your practice to the next level, improving the quality of your life and the life of the people around you. We do this work for you, so please use it. I’m listening here very attentively. That’s really, really interesting. Now, it’s kind of a lecture. We’ve turned
this podcast into a lecture, but it’s so beautiful how you describe it. It’s so beautiful. So please, if the thought process continues, just continue, and I’ll ask my questions at a later stage. Please continue. You can ask your questions in. No, no, no. Keep going, keep going. Well, it’s the same thing as everybody says, “I’m trying to create joy in my life.” Well, joy is not something you
can create. It’s something that has to come from within us. So when we make that interconnection and have that awareness shift, joy just exudes naturally. If you think about all the master teachers, they’re not super serious. They’re always giggling and laughing, and they seem so happy. And that’s what we always aspire to be. And it’s all about making this connection and having the understanding that we have to
unstick from habit, unstick from expectations, unstick from our logic and our ego. It means we will always have logic and ego, but we don’t want that to rule our life. Everything works from the inside out, not the outside in. And then we can have a very easy life. I mean, this is a fantastic journey you described that you seem to have gone through yourself. I mean, you can
only talk about it because you discovered that for yourself. Right now, for most of us, yeah, me included, I’m nowhere near that. So where would we start this journey? You spoke about that initially. We all start with our exercises, and we are quite rigorous, most of us. You know, how we do things. And then it seems to me that this focus on the exercises, on the particulars of
the exercise, it’s like they shouldn’t be in our way to move to the next level. Right? Is that a way to put it forward? Because you cannot just sit there and hope for enlightenment. So that’s why we do these exercises. That’s why we start somewhere, but then, you know, the transformation. Something shifts within us while we’re doing it and while we continue with our practice. Is that fair
to say? Yes, absolutely. You cannot be without the practice, the physical practice. Right. We just can’t be completely stuck on the technique. For example, anyone can learn from anyone, and then with practice, you become very, very good at it. What I realized is that for many, many years, I really was good at my practice. I mean, I did everything I was supposed to do. The form looked really,
really nice. The technique, the finger movements, everything was perfect. But I had lost something. And it wasn’t until Master Liu happened to come for the first time to the United States, and he did a practice that was so entirely different. It was still Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down. But his whole thought process was in a different place. And that was what was missing for me. I called
it a spiritual connection, but it was a connection, an inner connection that had been lost somewhere along the line. And then everything began to shift. Now I’m not there either. All the time, Torsten, I’m not there. It used to be a glimpse. Now it may be moments. But it’s so easy because we are so trained culturally to depend on everything according to, you know, our appearance, our job,
how much money we make, what we look like, all of those things. And that’s all coming from the outside. When we can unstick from logic and ego and work from the inside, all of those other aspects begin to change. Our inner awareness change. And what happens. And you can see this in other people. All of a sudden, they stand straighter. You know, they start wearing different clothes, not
because they’re trying to please someone out there, but because they are feeling comfortable. Within their own skin. So their inner essence, their inner space is becoming so large, it’s larger than the physical body. So you are being held upright with your space, which is basically Dantian. We are the sky, the earth, and the space in between. And we begin to live our life from that perspective. So it
changes our mental paradigm, and it changes our perception. To talk on a practical level, what happened for you? You were doing your practice very diligently, and you were really good at what you were doing. And then at one point, in this case, it was through an encounter with Master Liu. But it doesn’t have to be that. At one point, there is an insight that struck, and you realized
something, and that something might be completely different for someone else. Right. Because we’re all at different stages, and we all have different, you know, different processes that we go through. So, but there is this shift at one point that opened something up for you, and then you were just… Yeah, you said something beautiful. I’m not quite sure whether I got that correctly when you spoke about that. The
training becomes something that you actually have no choice but to follow. You’re so drawn to it. That is not a question of, okay, should I do my training today or rather, you know, do something else? It’s not a question anymore. It’s just what you naturally want to do and what you naturally do. Right. And I assume, you know, please correct me if I’m wrong here, that this is
one of the consequences of this insight. And that, again, basically opens up new doors and new possibilities. And. Yeah, I mean, your. Your words were so much more beautiful than mine because you. You described your own experience here. But maybe we can explore this a little, a little more. You know, maybe from your very personal perspective, how did it show up in your life? What did it mean
exactly? And, yeah, and how can we, you know, listening here to this podcast, get a. You said something when you said, don’t be afraid of that because people might be a little fearful. Okay. What does this actually mean? It’s so unknown. It’s something we have never experienced before. So maybe you can take this fear away from us or you can make it a little more familiar so that
when it comes up, we are welcoming it more. I’m rumbling now, rambling now a little bit, but maybe you get what I’m. What I’m aiming at here. Yes, yes. And. And, you know, I was rambling now you’re rambling. So together we’ll really put something great together. In the beginning, for me, it was always this combination of inside and outside merging, like going out to nature and pulling nature
in. And that was more important to me than the technique. At some point in time, when my original teacher left, my original teacher was Luke Chan. And he was always so joyful, and, you know, everything was okay, regardless of what it looked like or what was happening. And as a result, we could do much more than we thought we were capable of. Some point in time when he
moved away, I worked with another teacher for a while who was very good as well. And then I was on my own and on my own somewhere. It became during this transitional period, there was a point in time where wall squats were very important, and we were all doing wall squats. And then someone said, well, how many wall squats are you doing a day? And someone said, I’m
doing, you know, 100. And someone said, well, heck, I’m doing 200. And then someone else would say, I’m doing 600 a day. So something shifted. And all of us, it wasn’t just me. Our. Our awareness shifted to the outside. So it became ego and logic, and we were competing with one another. And that did not work for me. Right. I ended up so outside that I blew both
of my knees. And I had to spend a great deal of time healing my knees before I could even, you know, for years, before I could even do wall squats again. And I’m not saying they’re bad. You just can’t be in a competition. This isn’t an Ironman contest. And somehow it became that. And during that time, my heart or my interconnection, my true self disappeared. Yeah, everything became
an exercise. And during that period of time, I became ill. And that was my first confrontation with a disharmony that, you know, was frightening for me. So I couldn’t change. I didn’t know how. And I thought, well, I just quit. I’m just stopping. I’m never going to practice again. You know, this isn’t working anymore. I used to really enjoy it and felt this connection, and it was sort
of like my own way of being in the world, and I didn’t have that. I lost it and started dealing with all the physiological things with disharmony. And over time, I realized I didn’t really quit. I kept practicing, and I thought, why am I practicing? Why am I doing the same thing over and over? It means nothing to me. And then eventually I met a teacher that shifted
that awareness for me, and that’s what changed everything. So looking back, reflection’s always good, right? During the process. When you’re in it, it’s very challenging because you’re. You’re in it, right? But looking back, I realized that everything had moved outside. I was completely stuck in logic, ego, and form, rather than interconnection, space, formlessness. And when you are in that space, that formlessness, of course, there is this mergence
of physical body with that space. But everything’s easy. And your physiological body follows because everything is being moved by your heart, mind, no longer your logic and ego. Now, here’s a few things that I’d like to point out or address. One is that what I notice is that when you were stuck, it was also a time, it seems to me, where there was little inspiration from outside. Because
when you spoke about. And then this master came, I think was Master Liu in this case, and it was working with him or whatever he said, that opened up something. And I think that’s something we shouldn’t underestimate because. Because if we just practice by our own all the time and never talk to anyone who has gone through similar experiences or who’s got some other insights that might or
might not resonate with us, then it’s far more difficult to get to the next level and to get new insights and new ideas. And I think that’s also why this podcast, in particular, this episode with you is so important, because there will be people out there where they say, wow, this is an interesting thought, and they start, you know, dwelling on it, and maybe something will move and
shift with them. So I think the idea of being in an inter. In interaction with someone else, you know, through this podcast or with other teachers or something like that is a very important part of our practice. Very rarely do we actually just sit all by ourselves on a Hill for 15 years, and then suddenly we move to the next level. It happens to some people, but I
think it’s more anecdotal rather than, you know, how real life happens. So that’s something I want to encourage everyone now just, you know, keep. You don’t have to take on anything that. That you say or I say or anybody else says. But, you know, have an open mind and an open heart and see whether any of that could be of value to you, and that might, you know,
shift something or move you to the next step. Is that something, you know, that you’d also, you know, agree with and say? That is an important part of us moving further, right? Absolutely. It is what we always talk about our qigong family. You need a community, and you Know, way back when, when I started, no one, you didn’t have people you could share this with because people were
separated. There wasn’t a great deal of Internet connection. And so you would go to these retreats to, to rejuvenate and speak to your friends and see how they progressed. And also we saw our teachers change too. You know, the more we practice, the more we evolve as human beings. But it’s that sense of community that is so important. And it doesn’t matter if it’s just you and me
speaking or if you’re in a group of 30 people. It’s so important that we share what we know, regardless of whatever level you are at, because every single person, it will be received at their level and then they can take that information and utilize it to help themselves. So I just think what you are doing and Britta, it’s just phenomenal because it’s a way, it’s a platform for
people to make these connections and have their own community. And I think it’s just, it’s wonderful. Now the other thing that it just came back to me is when you. It seems to me that, that you realized before that interaction with Leo happened that there was something missing, that it’s. That there is something wrong. Yet I want to make sure that, that we all understand you correctly here.
You were not going out there because there’s a little bit of the risk. Now people hear our conversation and they say, okay, great, let me now move my practice from the form to the formless. How am I going to do this? It’s not like you can’t make it a goal as such. Right? It is more a natural progression. Maybe you can explore this a little bit. It doesn’t
sound to me like you went out there and set the goal and said, okay, from tomorrow on, I’m going to be formless and I’m going to be. Have the inner connection. Let me just get this done. Now. It’s not like it doesn’t work like that, right? That’s correct. You know, I didn’t go to the top of the mountain and say, okay, I have nothing to worry about. Everyone
feed me, bring me food. All I have to do is sit here and do nothing. No, as we said, everything has to be followed by action. So, no, it’s a natural progression. And I think it’s important to talk about it because we are so attached to everything outside of us and there’s nothing wrong with that. But in the same breath that is most of us, we’re either all
formed or we’re sitting in our room just meditating. Well, there has to be a balance between the two. And what our qigong practice offers us is that balance. Right. We’re merging the two together. And it’s a natural progression. Just be aware of where you are in that space. So ways to help you with that is to, you know, think. How do I see my practice? What do I
think of my practice? Are you thinking every day, oh, geez, I have to get up and practice because if I skip a day, I’m in big trouble. That’s not helping you. So if you’re feeling like that, it just means you have to change the way you do your practice. Practice, right. You either do a different technique, a different practice, or you change something about it so that it
becomes new and fresh to you. We don’t want to become habitual either because then we’re only connected with form and formless falls by the wayside. So that balance is always tilted. And I think through our practice we are doing this all the time. And then we come to a place, we’re like, ah, there now. And then, boom, it changes again because we’re changing and we evolve through different
levels or different dimensions. And that’s all natural. And not to. I don’t want anyone to feel that. If they, well, just say, for example, you’ve been doing lift chi up towards you down for five years or 10 years and that’s your major practice and your health hasn’t changed, well, then it’s time to switch up your practice. It’s time to look at it and see h. What does my
practice really mean to me? Am I connected? Am I not connected? What’s going on? And reach out for a teacher. You know, look at this student hub. Watch someone else doing something different and think, think, oh, maybe, maybe I should, maybe I should switch it up a bit. And then all of a sudden it becomes very fresh. You go back to your practice and you’re in a different
space. You go back to your original practice, whatever that is, and you’re in a different space and there is a different awareness and that all happens naturally. So I just think we need to be aware of ourselves and not get too caught up in, you know, we’re not trying to earn black belts. You know, we’re not moving up a ladder. This is all for us, and Dr. Pang
has given us all these tools. We can pick and choose what works for us, continuing to change and evolve, and that’s how we progress. Now, I’d like to go back a little bit here, Debra, because in the first third of our conversation, you spoke about three factors, and they sounded really important to me. We kind of skipped over it because we just continued talking about all these other
amazing things But I’d like to explore them a little bit further so that our audience knows what they mean to you. Exactly. The first one was trust. You spoke about trusting your true self. Now, what does that mean to you? Do not put your trust in something outside of yourself. If we do, outside of ourselves, then we are connecting with form, ego, and logic. When we begin to
trust. Now, in the beginning, we don’t have a lot of confidence in ourselves. So, how do we create trust within ourselves? It is through our practice, right? If you continue to practice, then you gain more confidence, and then you begin to open up your heart and begin to trust yourself. Now, I think this is a very important point because if we take this further, when you say don’t
trust. Yeah, the trust in your true self and not putting your trust in things outside yourself, for me, that includes Zhineng Qigong, because Zhineng Qigong is just a way of how we approach life in order to get to our true self. But it’s not Zhineng Qigong that holds the power. It is really our true self that holds the power. And our true self, I mean, we all know
how powerful it is because whatever controls your heartbeat now and has you sitting here talking to me That is all coming from inside of you. It’s not some external thing controlling you or making that happen for you. So, I think this idea of trusting your true self is very important, also, because I often hear words like, “Trust your practice.” And I think it’s true on one level, but
you only trust your practice because you’re behind your practice. It’s your true self that is using this practice to achieve the result. Right? Or when people say, “No trust, you can heal,” or “Trust, if you do Zhineng Qigong 8 hours a day, you can heal.” That’s all true. That’s all true. But it always comes back to the true self. Because who does the healing? It’s… Yeah, whatever is
powerful within you that does the healing process. So, I don’t know. Correct me if I’m misinterpreting anything here, but that is… You know what it means to me when you say, “Trust your inner self.” I totally agree. Yes. Okay, good. So I got that right. That’s perfect. So, the second point—please repeat the second point for me. That is like a hurried wish or an inner nudge, right? Not
necessarily a desire because that’s attached to some kind of expectation, but there’s something in, like, a no-choice practice. It’s that kind of feeling, there’s something within you that makes you want to do this. Whether it’s yoga, prayer, or whatever it is, it has to be coming from within you. For many of us, that is easier said than done because I’m sure there’s a huge part of the community
that does the exercise because we have to do the exercise in order to get better. Right, or to stay healthy now. So, let’s explore this a little bit. Where do you think it comes from? You know, why do some people have this inner urge to say, “This is just what I want to do”? Because, you know, I enjoy it and it’s just what I want to do. I
think that’s when there is a shift in awareness. And that awareness shift is coming from the inside, not because someone else tells you this is what you should do, or guilt, or judgment, or anything like that. It’s something that comes from within yourself. And I totally agree that it’s much easier said than done. I think a lot of everyday things, a lot of our life, we spend a
great deal of time intellectualizing, and we understand that intellectually, but applying it is a whole different idea. For me, it’s the Zhineng Qigong that gives me the tools to be able to find and, like, research without trying to research myself. So, I’d like to bounce a thought off you because, you know, from what you describe, it sounds like basically you wake up and there’s an inner knowing that
you want to do the practice, and it’s just so beautiful, let’s do it now. Would you say that if I have an intention behind it, it is as powerful? For example, I’ve got a serious disease that is dragging me down, but I can connect with my life intention I say no, I want to be out there in nature. I want to enjoy my life. I have a vision
for my life, and that is what calls me to do my practice. Would you say it is as powerful? Because it’s clearly something different, but for a lot of people, that has worked very well. That’s correct. And I think personally, I preferred will. I prefer willed focus. And this is my own personal interpretation. Yes. When I set an intention, I have an expectation, and that expectation is creating
something outside of me. And that’s just my. Where it comes from within me. So, I just changed intention to willed focus. And for me, that’s something completely different. It has nothing to do with willpower, but there’s a willed focus. And then my mental state doesn’t think of an expectation. It’s like it’s already achieved. Like, I had this intention when I first started. You know, I felt like… and
this was way back when I first started. I thought, okay, my intention, if this is so powerful, as they say, and all these things can happen, and if I continue to do this, I’ll be healthy. Well, then I’m going to get rid of all these things that are not healthy. And this was before I had a huge disharmony. These were little things. I thought, I’ll start small because
I had no confidence, no trust. Yes. So I’m like, okay, let’s say I’ll just make something up. Like, I had warts on my arm, and I thought, okay, I’ll see if I can just… if I practice every day, those warts will go away. So, I looked at my calendar and I thought, it shouldn’t take more than 30 days. So, on my calendar, I put in 30 days: These
warts on my left arm will all be gone in 30 days. Nothing happens. And I said, well, maybe I just need more time. I’ll give myself three months. In three months, nothing happened. And I realized a couple of things. First of all, I had put down when I thought it should resolve itself. So I had my intention, became an expectation. Right. That expectation was supposed to happen on
this particular day. So, each time it did not happen, I lost trust, I lost confidence. I thought, well, that didn’t work, so I threw it out the window. And I thought, I’m just going to have a willed focus. And I thought, well, what am I focusing on? My practice. I’ll just focus on my practice. Within a short period of time, the warts were gone. And all the other
things that I put down should be gone by this date, this date, even a year from then. Everything went away over time because I wasn’t attached to it. Yes, I had… unattached. I was aware of it, but unattached to it. Yes. And I think that’s very important. So, I know intention is important. I just think we should be careful that we’re not having an intention with an attachment.
Right. Because the moment we add the attachment, the ego automatically comes into play. And the moment the ego comes into play, there’s no way you can be connected to your true self, because, yeah, everything is going to be distorted. So, yeah, that, for me, is the logic behind why, you know, we have to be very careful what we do there and not be outcome dependent. And we know
from a lot of teachers, no matter what the results, they will always be happy. But that doesn’t mean they go through life without, you know, intention, without, you know, wanting to create something beautiful. But they’re not invested in the actual outcome. It’s more the way of being rather than looking at a particular result. All right, yes, it’s a way of life. Yes, yes, it’s our life. Now, the
third point, Debra, you spoke about action. Can you explore that a little bit with us, please? Well, if we, you know, sit around… even Dr. Pang mentioned something to this effect. We can sit around and wait for someone to take care of us, but if we do not participate, if we do not take action, how can we expect someone else to do all that for us? Right? So
that’s where the action comes in. And for us, as qigong practitioners, it’s through our practice. I would even take this a step further because, you know, I’ve seen qigong practitioners who are very sincere and practice a lot, but they get their meals three times a day from McDonald’s. So, yeah, I would say, it’s all great that you practice, but really, you know, please don’t forget that there are
other ways to support your life, health, and well-being also. So, make it a little easier for your true self to transform into this healthy being by getting some proper nutrition into your body. I’m exaggerating now, but I think, you know, this is all important to take. For me, this is part of the action. Yes, I agree, I agree. I also believe if you really are working from the
inside out, there’s a natural progression where everything begins to change. I mean, believe me, like, I loved M&M’s. Okay? M&M’s are just these, you know, they’re just chocolate, no good, nothing. But at some point in time, I couldn’t eat them anymore. I liked the plain M&M’s, not the peanut, the plain. At some point in time, I couldn’t eat them anymore. And I was so frustrated. I’m like, why
can’t I eat these? And I kept trying, and I kept getting sick. And then finally, and this is how everything is in our practice, we have to beat it to a pulp until we finally go, oh, I’ve had an awareness shift. Now I understand I could no longer eat M&M’s. And then I think, what? And that’s different for… I mean, that’s a ridiculous thing. But everything began to
change. When you become aware of it, then you don’t fight it. And rather than spend weeks or months trying to repeat the same thing over and over without success, you say, okay, I can no longer do this. I can no longer eat that food. And you accept it. So, with trust, we build confidence, and that’s how we gain trust. But we also have to appreciate acceptance and be
aware of why we shouldn’t have to fight nonstop to accomplish something. Now, I love how we started with inner connection, true self. And we ended up, we ended with M&M’s, the plain ones, not the peanut ones. So, I think we’ve really covered a lot of ground, Debra, and we are way over time. But I don’t want to stop before mentioning that we have two other amazing videos of
you and with you on our YouTube channel. One is obviously the teacher’s portrait, which we will link in the show notes, and the other one is a video called The Day I Met Dr. Pang, because you were one of the fortunate Westerners who has actually ever met Dr. Pang, who was at his center. So, that’s another beautiful video for people to explore and learn from your experience there.
Debra, it was a pleasure to talk to you. Let me just check—what are you teaching these days? Are you teaching back home, or are you teaching international groups? Or, you know, who can basically benefit from your wisdom and teachings? I teach everything now online, and even my Hunyuan Qi Therapy is online. So, I work with people all over the world, according to whether their time zone fits with
mine. Right, right, perfect. So, we’ll put your website, of course, and you just said it yourself, you’re not just a Zhineng Qigong teacher, you’re also a therapist. So, I think you’ve got the best skill sets possible to support people on their journey and with their health and well-being. So, thank you very much, Debra. It was so nice to talk to you this evening here for me in Cyprus,
and I know it’s the morning for you. It would be lovely to reconnect sometime later this year and maybe record another episode if people are interested in that. Thank you so much for thinking of me. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you. It’s just been wonderful. Thank you. We trust you enjoyed this conversation, and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch
and notify you of future episodes. We will end today’s episode with the Eight Verses Meditation performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx. Enjoy. To get your free eBook on the Eight Verses Meditation, please check the show notes below.
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