In this episode John Millar dissects an expansive Qigong History, tracing its roots back thousands of years to ancient Chinese health traditions. He explores how Qigong has significantly evolved over time, offering insights into its societal impact in historic China, its effects, and its far-reaching influences. John also engages in a thoughtful discussion on Dr. Pang Ming’s pivotal role, both historically and in the contemporary practice of Qigong, particularly its transition into medical Qigong.

Zhineng Qigong practice is a rich blend of ancient wisdom and modern adaptation, reflecting the complex cultural and historical landscape of China. The emergence of Zhineng Qigong in the mid-20th century marked a significant shift towards a more accessible and scientifically grounded approach to health. This evolution was influenced by the Chinese government’s desire for a public healthcare system, leading to a focus on the physical benefits of Qigong while distancing it from more spiritual elements associated with practices like Falun Gong.

John emphasizes Qigong’s deep roots in Daoism, while also highlighting the influence from other practices like Buddhism, Daoyin exercises, and animal mimicry. He also reflects on how the “Monkey King: Journey to the West” folktale symbolizes the interplay between Chinese and Indian spiritual traditions, further enriching Qigong’s cultural tapestry. With his profound understanding of Qigong history, John examines the practice as a movement that has not only evolved but has potentially influenced other Eastern practices, such as Yoga.

In the end, he also provides a detailed analysis of the current state of Zhineng Qigong, noting how it has transformed to meet the needs of a more modern society. John elaborates on its transition into medical Qigong and explores Dr. Pang Ming’s significant role in advancing this holistic health modality.

John Millar takes us through the fascinating history of Qigong, starting thousands of years ago with simple movements imitating the movements of animals, to its current form of Zhineng Qigong science, not without controversy and political turmoil. This episode sheds some light on where we come from, where we are today, and where we are heading from here. My name is Torsten Lueddecke, and this is the Western Qigong Podcast. The

views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals involved. The content is for informational purposes only and should not be taken as fact. The history of Qigong is always a contentious one. I remember years ago, one of my first introductions was the work of Ken Cohen. Ken Cohen points it back to the Wu of ancient China, the shamanic practices of ancient China. There are

people who say that it’s back to about 4000 BC, there are people who say it’s older, and there are people who say it’s newer. When we look at Qigong as a subject, we need to recognize that actually, Qigong only came into existence in its current kind of form in the 1950s. Prior to this, there was a number of practices that existed. That’s a little disappointing because we keep

promoting Zhineng Qigong as based on thousands of years of Chinese wisdom, and now you come and say it’s only been around since the 1950s. I’m sorry. Yep, that is the case, but we’re not lying. Qigong as a term has only been around since the 1950s. But the underpinning practices, whether we look at Dao Yin, which is one of the older, more recognized sort of labels that was given

to it, or whether we push back into prehistory, we can still see the process going through. If we take Ken Cohen’s perspective and go, “Oh, ancient, shamanic practices.” At this point, we find something very interesting. The argument here is that in those times, we would imitate the movement of animals in order to achieve their abilities. So if you want to hunt more effectively, you may imitate a tiger.

If you want to stalk more quietly, you may imitate a deer. You would look at nature as an inspiration in order to help you in your survival. Then that just makes sense. Absolutely. If you look at that idea around the world, what you find is that in China, this has moved into the martial arts, it’s moved into qigong, it’s moved through the spiritual traditions. If you move into

Siberia, the Siberian shamanic practices have this inspiration. If you move to Central America, you can talk about the Central American practices and Carlos Castaneda’s magical passes and all of this stuff. You can see it in every country around the world. You can see this influence. I sometimes joke and say that, in the UK, we still have this influence. It’s called Morris dancing. It’s the older, well, it tends

to be a slightly older generation of people who turn up at pubs on a Sunday wearing bells on their ankles and hitting each other with sticks. We can see it come through all cultures, but in China, it came through as Qigong. So then we have to say, “What is it that turned it into Qigong in China compared to Morris dancing or other seemingly unrelated things in other cultures?”

That’s where I think it gets interesting. If you look at China and you look at the way that the spiritual practices evolved, the first one that we really see documented is Daoism. So we can point back to people like Lao Tzu. The ideas that sit within Daoism appear to be absolutely core to the ideas that sit within Zhineng Qigong. To me, it’s probably more of a Daoist practice

than it is a Buddhist practice, although there are these references to Pang as Pang Monk when he was in a Buddhist phase. Taoism. What can I say about Taoism? It has to me a sense of simplicity within it. There’s a piece here that is very much about, the best way to describe it, the idea Dao, Qi, Dao. Where the mind goes, the Qi follows. You can see that

within Buddhist practice, the concept of Kunyuan Qi comes directly from some of the ideas within Buddhism about Wu Ji, about non-action, about Wu Wei. There’s these direct correlations and the practice. The use of the embodied practices that you see within the shamanic traditions, as they moved through Buddhism, actually got an interesting hit to them because one of the ideas within Daoism, one of the ideas within Daoism is

that you need to have a long life in order to achieve the aims within Daoism. So it’s natural then for the Daoist spiritual practices to have a health aspect to it. And arguably, this is the part that’s then picked up by the Yellow Emperor. By the way, if you Google the dates for the Yellow Emperor, it’s massively confusing, because the Yellow Emperor’s classic appears to have been written

a significant time, and I mean hundreds and hundreds of years, after the Yellow Emperor actually lived. So there’s all kinds of bits and pieces there. But I think that initial connection between spiritual and health practice occurs around Daoism. And so we’re talking, what are the dates for Lao Tzu? Off the top of my head, I’m thinking about 250 BC, something like this. This is the first part that

we really see the physical practices and the spiritual practices coming together. Now, let me just make sure, because you mentioned Buddhism two or three times, but you meant Daoism. You corrected yourself, right? Yeah. So just for the listener, we were talking about Daoism here and all these things. Perfect. No worry. But that’s a great point you’re making here, connecting the spirituality with the health aspect. This is obviously

something which is extremely present in Qigong also, because Qigong and traditional Chinese medicine go hand in hand. So let’s take it from that point. We are with the Yellow Emperor at the moment, who’s so often credited to be the founder, the founding father of Qigong, right? He is, and I think there is an element of truth within it. But we also need to understand that the Yellow Emperor

is in many ways a mythical character. So the Yellow Emperor’s classic, which is somewhere up there, will be the Yellow Emperor’s classic. The dates are so much later than he existed. But Chinese medicine, I’m also going to pick up on the idea of traditional Chinese medicine versus classical Chinese medicine. A lot of people think that traditional Chinese medicine is a very old system. It’s not. It’s the latest

iteration of a very old system. So actually, for traditional Chinese medicine, there’s an argument that it only actually occurred in 1972. Another disappointment, John. Another disappointment. I’m calling it traditional, and then it’s so recent. Yeah, I’m full of disappointment, mate. A lot of people think that traditional Chinese medicine is a very old system. It’s not. It’s the latest iteration of a very old system. So actually, for traditional

Chinese medicine, there’s an argument that it only actually occurred in 1972. Another disappointment, John. Another disappointment. I’m calling it traditional, and then it’s so recent. Yeah, I’m full of disappointment, mate. And it went everywhere. So that was the first point that we really see the idea of traditional Chinese medicine. But prior to this, we have something called classical Chinese medicine. And classical Chinese medicine is a more complex

system. So when we talk about the five elements, and we’ll see a lot of people talk about five elements and the circle of the creative and the control cycle with a pentagram in the middle. That’s only one representation within classical. There’s actually the representation with the earth element in the middle, surrounded by the four elements. And this, again, speaks to other ways of viewing things through Chinese medicine.

And also, we talk about Postnatal and Prenatal Qi within the classical more than we do within the traditional. So it’s just labels. The origins of Chinese medicine go back millennia. The origins of Qigong go back millennia. But we mustn’t confuse the current terms that are used for them with where they came from. Okay, so let’s jump onto Buddhism, because Buddhism is also quite an interesting one. So a

lot of people will point to Bodhidharma’s visit to the Shaolin Temple as being the origin of certain forms of Qigong. So you talk about the Bīnjiā Jīnjīng, which are two very classic Qigong forms. Yīnjīn is the muscle and tendon work. The story that goes with it is that Bodhidharma, when he came, realized that the monks that were sitting there meditating, they were ignoring the physical being, and therefore

they weren’t healthy and they weren’t doing so well, so they needed to have exercise. So again, this spiritual tradition and the need for health gets emphasized in this perspective. But we also need to recognize that over the course of history, the Chinese. Well, let’s just say the controlled landmass that China has grows and shrinks at various times. And so, at certain points, it includes Tibet, it includes Korea,

it includes Taiwan, it includes all of these areas. Then you can’t just point at Bodhidharma. You’ve got also to point to Padmasambhava, who’s the founder of Tibetan Buddhism, and the influence of Tibetan Buddhism on China. And on top of that, you’ve also got to look at Monkey Journey to the West, this amazing folktale that’s become quite well known. And I would encourage anybody who hasn’t read Monkey to

go and get a copy of Monkey. Sorry, I’m going to just give a brief plug here. This is a podcast. Not everybody is watching it, so you’ll have to tell us what you’re doing. Yes, yeah, absolutely. There’s a version of Monkey by an author called Julia Lovell. The book I’m holding up now, which is just a beautiful rendition of it. I will put the details in the show

notes. For those that couldn’t see the book now, that they can have access and get it if they are interested. Now, again, Monkey is a fascinating story because it talks about, it kind of takes the mickey out of the Daoist traditions and the Buddhist traditions, and points to all the shortcomings that sit within them, within this folk tale about a monkey king. It’s called Monkey: Journey to the

West. What it’s also recognizing is the influence of the west, as in the west of China, so India, had on the spiritual traditions of China. So there’s all these bits that are all weaving through as well. To me, this is a fascinating part of history. Right. And to add just one more bit into that before we come up to date and talk about Zhineng, there’s some really fascinating

stuff around the Dao Yin exercises. So there’s two main points here. One is, in about 400 AD, I can’t give precise dates. I’m useless at remembering dates. The government took control of Dao Yin. They started to regulate the physical exercise practices. So when the Chinese government did this more recently, it isn’t without precedent. It’s happened before. My name is Leila Cupido and I’m the project manager of the

Students Hub. Our team is constantly adding events, teachers, videos and other resources to take your practice to the next level, improving the quality of your life and the life of the people around you. We do this work for you, so please use it. What’s the reason at that point in time that the Chinese government thought they have to regulate the movements? I couldn’t give you precise details on

that one. All right. One of the people that we work with, her PhD, was covering this area. And I have got access to the paper, but I wouldn’t like to summarise because I may get it wrong. But there is always a sense that these practices can have great power. We can talk more clearly about what’s happened in the more recent times than we can what happened 1600 years

ago. Of course. The other thing that’s interesting is that the earliest recorded version, or the earliest recorded Dao Yin exercises, look very similar to the earliest recorded yoga practices. The kicker here is that the earliest recorded Dao Yin practices predate the yoga practices by about 400 years. Well, at least that’s good news for our marketing here. So we are older than yoga, so potentially we are the origin

of yoga. Which is a really weird thought, right, because the perceived wisdom is that everything came out of India. But actually if you look at the way that the interactions occurred, there was an exchange with India. It’s never one way traffic in these things. There’s always cross-cultural influence. There is potential that Qigong actually is the origin of yoga. Well, Dao Yin is the origin of yoga. I think

it’s probably safer to say they have a common source. Right. I can already see all the commentaries of yoga practitioners underneath our podcast. Yes, absolutely. I think by far the safest thing to say is that there are a range of related practices with a common source. I think that if anybody is actually bold enough to stand up and say we are the original practice, they’re probably worth ignoring.

So, yeah, there’s this rich history that goes through. And if you look at the dynasties in China and the way that they rose, and the way that larger areas were taken in, then they shrank back. The need for, if you look at the warring states, if you look at these types of times. The need for there to be significant martial aspect within the movements, the need for the

health practices to be through this underlying spiritual thing that runs through as well. So it’s no surprise that a number of people now, when they talk about the basis of Qigong, they will talk about the combination of the martial, the medical, and spiritual, and the influence of those on the modern-day practices. Right. But if we bring it right up to date. Sorry, I’m just going Blair at you,

so you’ll have to put up with it just a little bit longer. I love it. So if we look at 1949 onwards it becomes very interesting. So pre 1949 we have this period from. I’m going to go 1912, as I say, please don’t trust me on dates. Please check them where we have the fall of the fight of the last dynasty within China, and then the rise of

the communists and the nationalists and there was all kinds of stuff going on between them. And in 1949, having had the Long March in the 1930s where Mao had retreated to the north of China, we then start to see the start of the current period within China. So at this point, there’s a couple of really fascinating things that have happened. The first thing to say is about Tai

Chi. Okay. Now, I have quite strong views about Tai Chi. As a Qigong practitioner, I consider Tai Chi, and if you look at one of the translations as Grand Ultimate Boxing. I don’t consider it to be the health practice, I consider it to be the martial art. But I’m a Qigong practitioner, so of course, everything right up to the pure martial art looks like Qigong to me. Quite

a lot of yoga looks like Qigong to me, because I’m a Qigong practitioner. Yes. If I was a Tai Chi practitioner, I’d probably say pretty much everything up to the purest Taoist aspect is Tai Chi. So we’re in murky ground. But in 1948, there’s a couple of people that we have to mention at this point. One is a lady called Sophia Delzer. She was in Shanghai at this

time and she was introduced to Tai Chi. Now, you’ve got to think that there’s been a lot of bad feeling about Western influence following the Opium Wars. Just have a look at the Opium Wars, you’ll find out why, especially Britain came off rightfully with a very bad reputation because of them. So it’s unlikely that the people who are teaching Tai Chi would teach the people who… They’ve got

such bad feeling about the secrets of their martial arts. But Sophia Delzer was a dancer, she was a choreographer, and she learned the Tai Chi from effectively servants at their property. And then brought it back to America and taught it. So there are two dilutions that we see. One is a dancer and the other one is not martial. Right. At the same point, we have a lady called

Gerda Geddes. Similar situation, brought Tai Chi back to the UK, and both are credited with being the first people to bring Tai Chi back to the West. But we need to go, “What is it they actually brought back?” And I think we need to ask the same questions of Qigong. When we start to see Qigong come into the West, why has it arrived, and what’s going on? What

was the situation at the time? Following on from this particular piece, 1948, we then move into a period called the Great Leap Forward. So the Great Leap Forward is 1958, 1962, something like that. This is when they start to move the whole basis of the Chinese economy, and they start to make big advances. But it also corresponds with the Great Famine. So there’s great hardship as well. So

there is a significant need at this point for a health practice. And this is the first point we see Qigong being used in the term, in something like the modern equivalence. Right. It did exist previously in the Qing dynasty, so 1600s to 1900s in some martial arts. The first time we see it in the sort of way that we view it nowadays is in this period in the

1950s, around a health practice that’s being promoted by the government to support significant health issues. So this is the first point that we see Qigong. Before that, let me just ask. So it’s an illusion if we think that all the Chinese people, all those thousand years ago, when they woke up in the morning, the first thing they would do were Qigong exercises, even though we didn’t call them

that way. It was not like that. I wasn’t there. I couldn’t say it wouldn’t have been called Qigong. Then if you look at some of the exercises. So, for example, Tai Chi Ball. Tai Chi Ball, I think, is an incredible exercise. But Tai Chi Ball isn’t Tai Chi Ball. Tai Chi Ball is Dragon Dà Yīn. So in Chinese mythology, the dragon is the animal that connects into heaven

and earth. Does this sound familiar? Dīng Tiānlì. Right. And the ball that it holds isn’t a ball. It’s either an egg, which is the start of new life, or a pearl, which is the beauty that comes from disruption. And it’s the movement of this between heaven and earth. So as a purely spiritual practice, this has vast meaning and predates Tai Chi Ball potentially by thousands of years. Right.

Because it sits completely within Chinese mythology. So to me, you’re more likely to have seen Tai Chi Ball being practiced than La Qi. But then the fundamental principles that sit within La Qi are common principles. So I was talking earlier this week to a Canadian author who’s writing. She’s a yoga teacher and a yoga practitioner, and her big piece is around introspection, and understanding the internal space. One

of the people involved in the conversation was a choreographer from Germany, and he was saying, “Yes, but we can’t understand our internal space without understanding the space around us.” And I’m sitting there going, I think you’re talking about La Qi, because that’s. This is the outside space. This is the inside space. Yes. So, to say that La Qi didn’t exist before Pang, I think is probably. We see

these ideas thousands and thousands of years ago. If you look at the movements that we have within Qigong. For example, Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down and, Body and Mind. And then you compare those to some of the more traditional ones. Like in the Shaolin schools of Qigong, you find massive commonality. So, yes, before the 1950s, the Daoist practices were probably very similar to what we now know

as Qigong. But Qigong is a term that only occurred in the 1950s. So then let’s continue there. So in the 1950s, the government was looking for a way to promote health for their people. It was a time where there were scarce resources and they couldn’t afford expensive Western medicine, and that’s when they said, “Okay, well, Qigong is a really good idea because we know it’s working.” Let’s take

it from there, please. Yeah, so at this point, we have a meeting of a couple of practices that form what was at that point, interestingly called Qigong therapy. That combined aspects of Daoism, of Buddhism, of a number of the traditional pieces, and Chinese medicine, into the movement, but that was problematic. So during the Cultural Revolution, Cultural Revolution is 66 to 76, I’ve just glanced down and checked my

dates, they are correct, good. What happens is that the Red Guards are very anti anything that refers back to the old style of China. Although there was this first resurgence, as it gets referred to, of Qigong in the 1950s, by the mid-60s, it’s already being suppressed. There’s some pretty unpleasant things happening to Qigong practitioners. The idea was, ‘We now have communism. It’s a revolution. Anything old, basically, we

have to get rid of, and it’s evil because we are building a complete new world.’ That’s kind of, if I summarize it in simple terms, the thought of the Chinese government had at that point, right? Yeah. And even when you come out of the end of the Cultural Revolution, the excesses that happened during. That period, there is everybody’s blaming everybody else for them. But you can see that

kind of fundamentalist piece coming through, going, ‘No, that’s old. We don’t want it. We need to get rid of that.’ Then we move forward to 1972. I’m just glancing down, it’s 1979. That’s the date I was looking for. I wish I could remember dates. This is the start of what’s called the Reform Period. In the Reform Period, what happens is that China starts to go, “We need to

find a way to move forward. We need to find a way to reinvent ourselves economically and make ourselves successful.” They then open up four key economic areas in the country and invite foreign investment in. These areas do amazing things, but unfortunately, what also happens is that the other areas in the country suffer as a result. There’s also a piece here about the introduction of Western medicine and the

sheer cost of Western medicine. Because opening the hospitals, the amount of funding that’s needed to bring the machinery in and the equipment and everything else, Western medicine is very expensive, and we’ve got large areas of the country that are in poverty because of the collapse of the economy outside of these four key financial areas. So they lean on Qigong again, and it comes back in. It’s this process,

it’s this cycle. It’s the second resurgence that is the birthplace of Zhineng. The government guideline at this point was that they needed a healthcare system. They needed a public health system that was deeply effective for people. It was accessible and it was scientific. The things it wasn’t allowed to be were spiritual. The reason for that is, within the whole of Communist China, there’s kind of a suppression of

religion. And religion and spirituality seem to go hand in hand. There’s an argument here that the spiritual leaders or the religious leaders exert too great a power over the population. We can take that however we want to. I kind of look at that today, and I have to question the leaders of the big religions. How much power do they exert over their population? And is that healthy? This

also has a slight sort of undercurrent to it because it also means that spirituality or spiritual traditions within China kind of don’t exist. But it’s a human need. So as soon as something arrives that has the potential to be spiritual in a situation like this, people are going to jump on it. And they’re going to go, “I can find everything I need in this.” So we have Zhineng

arriving, and anyone who’s studied Zhineng will know Qigong science. They will know Huaxia Center, they will know healing. These are the things that it’s really famous for, which completely correspond with what was required by the government. Right? But you also see the rise of a movement called Falun Gong. And Falun Gong is trying to plug the same hole, but they are incorporating spirituality into it. So their incorporation

of spirituality means they’re also plugging the spiritual void. So they inspire tens of thousands of people. They also, at this point, appear to be quite unscientific in the way that they’re promoting health. This doesn’t go down well with the government. Falun Gong, though, is also a Qigong form, or it has developed out of Qigong, but it’s not Zhineng Qigong. It is really a different, separate movement. Right, let’s

just make that clear. Yes, we need to say that up front. Years ago, I went into my local Chinese takeaway, and I was talking to them a little bit, and they asked me why I knew a bit about China. I said I practiced Qigong. And they said, “You’re not Falun Gong, are you?” If you’re Falun Gong, you leave. No, no, no, I’m not Falun Gong. But we need

to understand where they sit within it. They start as a Qigong practice and evolve into a spiritual movement. That I think now are classifying themselves as a religious movement. But we can also see why the government, who are staying scientific, health-focused, not spiritual, would not approve of the approaches that Falun Gong were taking. Absolutely, and I might add, I don’t have an opinion on Falun Gong. They can

do whatever they want from my point of view, because I’m not the Chinese government here, so I don’t have the same concerns and worries. But obviously, also one of the strong points, for me, of Zhineng Qigong is that it’s not religious. Muslim people can do it, Christians can do it, Jews can do it, anybody can do it. I don’t need a religion, or it doesn’t matter if I

have religion. It’s a perfect coexistence with anyone. That is, for me, part of the attraction. So, I know there was a necessity when Zhineng Qigong was founded to ground it on science. But it’s also wonderful because it’s not just, “Hey, let’s all believe this or let’s all believe that.” There is a scientific base to Zhineng Qigong, which obviously helps a lot of people from the mindset to say,

“Okay, I got it now.” This is science. That’s why it’s working. It’s far easier for a lot of people then to trust in Zhineng Qigong and to say, “You know, it’s obvious that it’s working. We can see it, we’ve got proof, and here we go.” Just wanted to make that point because obviously, this is a touchy thing with Falun Gong because it had an impact on the development

of Zhineng Qigong. Just because people don’t differentiate. Yeah, absolutely. I’m very grateful that Falun Gong is no longer considered to be Qigong because it means that Qigong is now free to be Qigong. Right. I would just completely back you up on what you’ve just said. It’s my involvement in Zhineng Qigong, and I’ve studied a number of styles of Qigong, but actually purely Zhineng is my practice. That’s what

made it possible for me to work in places like the Middle East. In Islamic states. We can introduce these ideas in ways that are completely open and accessible to almost anybody. Working with scientists, working at very high levels, and some of the other stuff I’ve done. We can present in a way that is accessible and makes sense, and that’s so powerful. I completely agree on that one. It’s

one of the things that, if we look at what Dr. Pang did, it’s one of the things that I think he did incredibly well. Because to me, Zhineng Qigong is a spiritual practice, but it’s not a religious practice. It has the ability for us to go very deep inside and understand our own state, but we don’t need to tie it to any particular doctrine. Right. Getting slightly sidetracked.

Okay. Let’s go back to where we were exactly, 1970 something. Right? Yeah. So we’re in the second resurgence, and we’re in the mid-80s. So at this point, there’s a couple of narratives that we hear. I think that we need to be cautious around these because I think that both of them are true to an extent. But it’s not really, as with anything, necessarily easy to say what is

the whole picture? So the first thing that we hear is that because of the Huaxia Center, it appears that the Chinese government considered Qigong to be a cultural treasure. So they then produced a league table of Qigongs. Unsurprisingly, Zhineng is at the top. Not because it’s the best Qigong for everybody, but because it was the one that was most accessible, and most relevant, and most widely proven in

China in the 1990s. So when we hear, number one Qigong in China, you need to then sort of think about that one and go, “Right, so most relevant to 1990s China.” Okay. That’s what they mean. Falun Gong didn’t make the top 10. Not surprised. Yes. So there was a little bit of upset. The stories I hear is that they mobilized 60,000, at least 60,000 followers to protest. Now,

when you say they, you mean Falun Gong organized them. Yes, and there was some very unpleasant things happening in Tiananmen Square around this. So I’ve heard reports of Falun Gong followers setting light to themselves in the same way that you see the Buddhist monks setting light to themselves in protests in other countries. It isn’t just they weren’t top 10. There was a whole load of other stuff going

on, and there was a massive movement. There were people who were completely inspired by Falun Gong who then protested. So then the government decided to take action. This is where one of the other myths about Qigong comes in. A couple of the stars of Qigong that I’ve studied have said, “Oh, no, no, Qigong was banned because our system is too powerful.” No, sorry. Qigong was banned, or certain

styles of Qigong were banned because of the influence they had over large parts of the population that weren’t aligned with the government. But Qigong itself was never actually banned. Which again is like, “Hey!” Because I’ve always been taught that what actually happened was that the government, yet again, as they did in the 4th century with Dao Yin, took control. Right. And they launched something that’s called Health Qigong.

Health Qigong is the accepted version, or was the accepted version of Qigong in China for many years. Interestingly, Health Qigong leans back into bad Hua Jin, into Yi Jin Jing, into Yi Mai, into all kinds of traditional Dao Yin exercises. And it embraces the culture. Unlike what happened with the Great Leap Forward, they’ve completely embraced the original culture. But they’ve done it in a way that is acceptable,

and there is research done on it. They have Qigong competitions to see who’s the best person in the forms and these types of things. But Health Qigong stepped in. The other thing that we hear is that when the Huaxia Center closed down, a lot of the people retrained into Tuina. Now, that didn’t happen because Qigong was just banned overnight. There was a process that occurred. So, yes, Zhineng

Qigong was something that wasn’t able to be practiced. Certainly, the first time I was in China to train, it was not an acceptable practice. Subsequently, sort of two or three years later, it was an acceptable practice. Things move very quickly in China. But also, we then see this idea of Pang and again. There’s lots of narrative around this that I would have to question. You know, we hear

about him. I mean, the strongest one I’ve heard is, “Oh, he was imprisoned for many years.” The more general one that we hear is house arrest. Again, where the truth of this is. I don’t know whether we will ever actually find out. But one of the things that is clear, at this time, Pang agreed never to be involved with Zhineng Qigong ever again. This was reinforced to me

when one of the teachers came over and he said, “Pang has heard something about what I was doing with the companies at the time.” And I just immediately turned around and said, “But Pang’s got nothing to do with Zhineng Qigong.” And the response was, “Yeah, absolutely, this isn’t about Zhineng Qigong.” It’s just like, “Okay, fair enough.” This makes me very cynical when we see people in China talking

about Pang’s latest teachings on Zhineng Qigong. It feels like, and I’m probably speaking out of turn here, so please feel free to shoot me down. My sense is that because of the promises that were made, that I understood are still being kept. When we hear these claims, we have to question where they come from, who they are serving, and what’s going on. Again, it’s that piece about if

we understand a bit of the history and the things that happened, we can see a little bit more of what’s happening nowadays more clearly. So I can move forward from here if you would like? Well, yeah, I think we need to look a little bit more into what you just said. Because that’s also something that I’m hearing for the first time in such clarity. Now, my understanding is

that Dr. Pang is present. I’m sure he is in line, like many others who support the current government in China. For Chinese people that’s just what you do in China. For better or for worse. But I hear he’s talking at conferences. I hear he’s around, so you might use different terms, but I cannot see that he has withdrawn completely from public life. Or from being a contribution in

the area of health and well being. It doesn’t matter how you call it. I’m sure he has his new insights, that he’s making sure people, humanity learns about. Right? Yeah, absolutely. But again here, we hit into an interesting area. One of the universities that I’ve been working with is University of Wales. Don’t need to go into detail about them, but they have two partner universities that they work

with in China: Jiangxi University and Beijing University. Most interestingly for us in this conversation is Jiangxi, Jiangxi University. One of the associate professors is Dr. Pang, and the work that he’s doing there is actually being pushed forward as Medical Qigong. Right. So it’s not Zhineng Qigong, it is now Medical Qigong. Yes. And if you study Medical Qigong, if you look at Medical Qigong, you’ll find a lot of

commonality between the things that exist within Medical Qigong and Zhineng Qigong. Actually, you’ll find that it’s kind of an open secret that Medical Qigong is derived from Zhineng Qigong. But the focus in Medical Qigong is slightly different. If we look at the studies that are being done in the universities, if we look at the way that universities in the West, for example, University of Northumberland, has done research

into Medical Qigong around Covid and also around insomnia, we’re seeing more and more of these things happening and Dr. Pang is still present within this process. The whole question about Qigong within the academic system, I think is a bit of a can of worms. Because there are many reasons why it should be there and there are also many reasons why it shouldn’t be there. But to me, there

is this core. And last time we spoke, we spoke about. Or we mentioned, “What is the core of the practice?” To me, one of the things that is hugely inspiring is that core of what Qigong is actually about, still seems to be present within the work that Dr. Pang is doing. It doesn’t need to be classified as Zhineng, it’s now coming through as Medical, and it gets supplied

into a different place. Yes, and I think that is where the two of us meet again. Because that is also my understanding. If you look at how, you could argue that the original Zhineng Qigong is currently practiced and really flourishes in the West. Because we don’t have these agendas, we don’t have that history, the political and the other ideas around that. We just see how wonderful it is.

So it’s currently upheld in the West by practitioners like you. I mean, you said you are focusing on your practice, which is Zhineng Qigong. Like many of our listeners, we are holding this up. While in China, they are trying to move their way back into Zhineng Qigong, using slightly different approaches, using slightly different terms, but making sure the essence and the incredible healing power of Zhineng Qigong is

preserved. Maybe in slightly different practices, maybe in slightly different ways that are less obvious. That have less history around them. So it’s easier to do that. In a way, one could say the powerful Zhineng Qigong is currently practiced in the West, while in China, they had to take this little detour. But it seems a lot like the officials in China are loosening up quite a bit. And as

you said, “Things are moving fast in China.”” China, you know. One thing about China is they’re an extremely intelligent country, and also their leadership is extremely intelligent. So if they see things are working well and it brings progress to the country, they’re quite willing to embrace it. As long as it doesn’t go into the Falun Gong way and takes a course on its own, saying, “Okay, guys, forget

communism, we know better because we are a spiritual movement or we are this or we are that.” I think it is kind of reintroduced slowly, and a little careful, because that’s also part of the Chinese culture. Now you take tiny steps and see, and look at what’s happening. In a way, I’m also saying the West is doing a great service to Zhineng Qigong here because we are upholding

it at the moment and we are practicing. Obviously with support of masters from China who know exactly how things work and share their knowledge and wisdom with us. There’s a piece here that I also think is fascinating. That if we look at the need for the creation of Zhineng Qigong. We’re talking about a system that was developed for the needs of China in the 1980s. Yes. It’s very

easy to then turn around and say, “Well, why are the needs of China in the 1980s relevant to the west in the 2000s?” That’s a question I think we should always ask ourselves because it helps us to actually put things into some point of reference. We’ve hit one of the really big ones already in the conversation. There’s aspects that we approach within Zhineng Qigong that are unspoken but

are very much present. Those same aspects around spirituality, around openness in this area, around healing, are as deeply relevant today in the West as they were in China. In the 1990s. Right. There are also aspects that were very much present within China in the 1990s, that are no longer as relevant in the West in the 2020s. My understanding of Pang’s teachings and my understanding of the invitation moving

forward was that he wanted the practice to continue to evolve. And certainly, his actions have spoken about the evolution of the practice. So my sense is that we need to recognize where it came from and also be willing to adapt and change to meet the needs that exist within the cultures that we live in, within the people that we work with. Again, it’s not about dilution. It’s about

recognizing the core and being able to work with the core ideas. I’m a little skeptical when it comes to the dilution thing because I just know that if a lot of people are all bringing their own stuff to it, then we might just get into trouble, while we know that the fundamental practice that Dr. Pang has developed is working so well. So why would I change things? I

get your reasoning when you say some of the needs in China in the 80s are not the same as the ones that we have today. At the same time, I find it difficult to see why these differences are so substantial that it will justify meddling around. Because fundamentally we know that Western medicine doesn’t have answers to all our ailments. We know that Western medicine comes at a high

price, and I’m not just talking financially here. I’m talking about an interference from the outside. Through drugs, through operations, that obviously has so many ripple effects that are not all positives. And that might do damage in other parts of the bodies because You’re looking at problems in a very isolated way. Qigong doesn’t have these things. Now we’re just talking about the health, the health part of it. The

whole idea. I had a podcast yesterday, and it was all about happiness, because at the core of Qigong is also happiness. Happy mind, healthy thinking. All of that is just so universal. It doesn’t change whether it’s in China, whether it’s in the West, whether it’s in the 80s or whether it’s today. So that’s why I’m a little more, if there’s a spectrum. I know you are very experimental

and try one or two things a little different here, while I’m a little bit on the traditional side here and say, “Okay, let’s try to stick to the original teachings as much as possible.” But there’s room for both schools of thinking. And as you said, it’s a progressive thing. Also, Dr. Pang is continuously developing new things, so it’s not static. So… Why not add in something if you

have an insight? In particular, because really Qigong is a very open system. The ideas are the same, but whether you do the Lift Qi Up like this or like that, it doesn’t really matter so much, if you understand the basics. Right. So I’m with you on one level and I’m a little less hesitant on another. I think that’s such a healthy approach. I’d like to reflect on that

because all of the Chinese teachers that I’ve worked with have taught differently. Therefore, what is the origin, what is the real version? Because everyone I’ve worked with has spent time at the Huaxia Center. They’ve either been on the three-month training or the two-year training. They’ve all got the same base training, but their representation of it is different. I think to me, what is the core, is more important.

Absolutely. If we recognize the core and we keep reverting to the core, and we allow ourselves to always come. I mean, this is the basics of the practice. La Qi is not go out and blow your mind. It’s expand your awareness and then refine your awareness. It’s present within the practice. But also there’s some interesting, if we look at some of the practices such as the Hmm meditation

stuff or the Ming Chui meditation. I think one of the things that we need to bear in mind here is that practices like this are deeply relevant to certain people, at certain points on their journey, through Qigong. But at other points they can actually be a trap. It’s a bit like. I’ve heard some, really relevant complaints about mindfulness being very dangerous. My own experience of Qigong is that

Qigong can be very dangerous. We’re not very dangerous. It can back you down sort of blind alleys. I think that the purest nature of Qigong, that you’re talking about, doesn’t have these side effects, is really important. But we need to understand the practice that is relevant for the person at the right time, in order to keep that movement towards freedom and to stop people getting stuck down blind

alleys, down spiritual cul-de-sacs, whatever we want to call them. So we don’t end up in the sort of classic thing of, “Every morning I practice for an hour,” and you say, “Why do you do that?” “Oh, I couldn’t cope with my day if I didn’t do that.” Right, so what you’ve done is, you’ve just gone, “I’m having a really tough time of it, but I can cope with

it because of Qigong.” So all Qigong is doing is keeping you trapped in a really tough time. So there are potential side effects as well. Great example. Yeah. But then really, if you look, if you go deep into it, it’s obvious that this is totally contrary to the idea of Zhineng Qigong. But we don’t see it. That’s what you call the blind alley. Right. We think we’re doing

this because that’s the way we get through the day, but really what we are doing is. It’s in our way to change something fundamentally, in the way we do our day so that we wouldn’t be in that situation in the first place. Right? John, this was a pleasure to talk to you. It was a very controversial conversation. I must add a disclaimer to our listeners, obviously, you and

I are just two human beings expressing our ideas, our opinions, we don’t say this is the truth. We don’t say these are the things, they are. We don’t know everything. We are just putting out our thoughts and where we are at the moment. We hope this gives people something to think about. I’m sure it’s something. We’ll have aroused one or two emotions in some of our listeners, but

that’s great. So thank you very much, John. And I hope to talk to you again soon. In our little pre-conversation, more things came up that we might want to discuss one day. So thank you very much for that, and thank you for taking the time to explain all of your knowledge to us and the listeners here. Thank you very much. Thank you. We trust you enjoyed this conversation,

and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch and notify you of future episodes. We will end today’s episode with the Eight Verses Meditation performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx. Enjoy. To get your free eBook on the Eight Verses Meditation, please check the show notes below.